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Around SBN: Terry Collins, David Wright, And The Mets/Brewers Kerfuffle

In-Depth Stats on Panthers CBs Explain High Ranking

Stats provided by: ProFootballFocus

I stumbled across this after reading another post briefly mentioning the failures of our corner, Richard Marshall. Admittedly, I haven't been high on Marshall much at all this season, these numbers proved to be an eye opener, in my opinion. I had no idea, nor would I have ever predicted, the numbers would look this way.

For those of you that don't care to click the link and read a bunch of abbreviations and numbers, I've provided a breakdown below.

I also feel that, as a whole, our defense (specifically against the pass) has performed better on field than on paper. The worst of a player tends to come out on paper more so than the best and stats really just don't tell you how a player has performed when it matters the most.

And to go ahead and bat down an argument that I'm sure would pop up at least once, I'm sure Gamble consistently draws the tougher receivers but aren't we paying him to do just that?

PS. I'm not trying to bash any of our corners, by the way, I think they've all done a great job, along with our entire defense, in keeping the Panthers competitive - even at the times in which we seem to have an inept offense (which we all know the cause of that). The numbers will speak for themselves, however, as each of you take them for whatever they mean to you.

Star-divide

  • Marshall ranks higher than both Munnerlyn and Gamble in coverage but is ranked the worst of the three against the run. 
  • Marshall also has the least amount of penalties at 2, Munnerlyn having the most with 4. Gamble sits in the middle with 3. 
  • None of the three have had any baring on pressuring the QB (by design, I'm sure).
  • Gamble has two more tackles than Marshall, 36-34 respectively, on 6 fewer snaps.
  • Munnerlyn has 22 tackles on just over a third of the snaps. (Gamble: 634; Marshall: 640; Munnerlyn: 275)
  • Marshall and Munnerlyn have combined to miss 4 tackles (2 each) while Gamble has missed 6 (Well, he does like to gamble, eh?).
  • Marshall has accounted for one more stop (according to PFF "the cumulative number of solo defensive tackles made which constitute an offensive failure") with 12 meanwhile Gamble has 11 and Munnerlyn 8.
  • Half (51.9%) of the balls thrown towards Marshall are incomplete, whereas Gamble has given up completions on over three quarters (78.4%) of balls thrown his way. Munnerlyn sits tight between the two (67.7%)
  • Marshall and Munnerlyn have combined to give up 483 yards (Marshall: 241 / 8.9avg; Munnerlyn: 242 / 11.5avg), meanwhile Gamble has given up 511 / 12.8avg (Gamble has been targeted 51 times; Marshall has been targeted 52 alone; Munnerlyn 31)
  • Gamble also doubles Marshall and Munnerlyn's combined total in yards after catch given up at 225. (Gamble: 255; Marshall: 100; Munnerlyn: 81)
  • Gamble has given up a long of 63 yards; Munnerlyn 27; Marshall 21. 
  • Marshall has given up 0 touchdowns on the season, meanwhile Gamble has given up 2; Munnerlyn 1. 
  • Marshall has 3 interceptions to Gambles 1, none for Munnerlyn. 
  • Gamble has defensed 4 passes; Marshall 3; Munnerlyn 1.

Finally, everyone knows of the much maligned NFL QB rating, however, through that, PFF has given cornerbacks their own "QB" rating. I don't believe it is an official NFL stat (I've never seen it) but it seems they simply determine what the QB ratings were while throwing towards each respective corner and average them...


In comparison to the rest of the league...

  • Concerning CB-specific QB Ratings, Richard Marshall ranks second only to Phillies Sheldon Brown, who has a 31.8.
  • From the bottom (meaning the lower the ranking the worse the player, by the way), Chris Gamble is, overall, ranked 4th; Munnerlyn is 16th; Marshall is 50th. There are 105 total CB's rated.
  • If it's any consolation, 19 other CB's on the list have missed equivalent or more tackles than Gamble.
  • Ken Lucas is averaging 15.2 average yards per completion over in Seattle, ranked the 12th worst. Gamble doesn't pop onto the list until #36.
  • Marshall has the 4th shortest "longest" pass given up among cornerbacks. (That one sure was hard to put into words.)
  • Of 16 corners tied for 1st place with 0 touchdowns given up, 4 have more than 500 snaps while only 2 have more than 600. Those two being Jerraud Powers of Indianapolis (601 snaps) and our very own Richard Marshall (640 snaps). He has the most snaps of all corners with 0 allowed touchdowns.
Well, that's all I really see that may be of interest to us Panther fans. I'd love to see what else you guys can derive from the information in the link provided.

Special thanks to BigDavis. I would've never known such a place as ProFootballFocus existed had he not used it for reference and shared it with the rest of us.

The content of these posts are those of the user/fan making the post only

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Very nice post D-Ranged

I did something similar with the same site, but I didn’t go as nearly in depth as you did. Did we maybe re-sign the wrong shutdown corner?

by Flowing Willow on Nov 27, 2009 2:20 AM EST reply actions  

Quite possibly! lol

I’m still hoping that Gamble picks it up, maybe he’ll have an extraordinary second half of the season.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Nov 27, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Count me as confused...

it seemed all the stats in the first section pointed to Marshall ranking very well but then he’s 50th in the overall rankings, which is bad? Wait…I get it. Marshalls 40.6 is the rating of the QB’s throwing at him, which is good, right?

That is impressive. I haven’t thought he played bad this season…he hasn’t made many big plays, but solid was my thinking…but not as good as shown in these stats

I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com

by Jaxon on Nov 27, 2009 9:22 AM EST reply actions  

I'm thinking...

Marshall has been great in coverage but severely lacks in run defense (5th from the bottom), thus falls mid-pack with the rest of the league.

I was impressed to see Munnerlyn holding his own and showing signs of performing better than Gamble at points.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Nov 27, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Great assemblage of facts!

You prove that our initial observations don’t catch all the subtleties of a play, or a season.

Richard Marshall has played at a very high level, compared to all the universe of CB’s out there. To have played 640 snaps, and been thrown at 52 times - and yet only allowed 27 receptions to his men, -0 TD’s, and a long gain of only 21 yards (!) — that’s the best in the league, of all corners in on more than 295 snaps — it’s extraordinary.

He’s the reason, not Gamble, that we rank as high as we do in pass defense.

by bigdavis on Nov 27, 2009 1:59 PM EST reply actions  

I just sent this email to PFF

“Love your site! But I have a question.

It would seem to me that RICHARD MARSHALL (Car) would deserve a higher pass Coverage Rating among CB’s. Specifically, DARRELLE REVIS has a 14.8 Coverage rating, vs Marshall’s 3.4 - yet Marshall’s NFL QB rating is better (40.6 vs 55.3), he’s allowed -0 TD’s (vs 2), his Long Gain is 21 (vs 53), he has 3 INTs (vs 3 from Revis). he’s made more tackles, and missed fewer, than Revis — and his average TD/Completion ratio is only 8.9 (vs 11.1 for Revis.)

I would seem then, (not knowing the formula for how you define your “Coverage” rating) that Passes Defended is overweighted, since that and % completion are the only coverage stats that Revis (11 and 43.2%) shows better than Marshall (3 and 51.9%)

Can you shed some light on that formula you use?"

by bigdavis on Nov 27, 2009 2:55 PM EST reply actions  

How about our safety's

Is there a way to rank them and what site do you go to get that information.

by Tommy_The_Pantherian on Nov 28, 2009 12:45 PM EST reply actions  

ProFootballFocus.com

I’m very intrigued to do the same for our safeties but I’m hoping Sherrod Martin will get two more starts over Charles Godfrey to provide an even 6 games between the two. I don’t think that’s going to happen, though, as Godfrey is probable this week.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Nov 28, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Here ya go, Tommy...

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=S&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Note that there are 85 Safeties ranked in the NFL this year.

Quinton Teal (who knew he’d been in there for 221 snaps?) is rated highest of the 4 Panther safeties, at #43, then comes Sherrod Martin at #46, Charles Godfrey at # 65, and lastly Chris Harris at #71 (Harris gets that ranking largely because he’s counted as missing 8 tackles, tied for 3rd most of all the safeties in the league)

The really interesting stat that jumps out, when you look at our guys, is the QB Rating that results from all passes thrown to the guy’s area, and how they turned out. The average QB Rankning vs Teal is 118.8, vs Godfrey it’s 110.8, ve Harris it’s 120.3 — and get this! vs Martin, it’s 25.0! That’s 7th best in the league!

by bigdavis on Nov 28, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Great post, thanks for all of that info D-Ranged. I still think that Munnerlyn is a quality CB, and is a great fit for this team. Give him a couple of years, and who knows what will happen.

Just don’t let him return punts.

Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader

by Ivan459 on Nov 28, 2009 12:47 PM EST reply actions  

skewed facts

I have to be honest, i have been high on marshall since he got here, and i predicted he would get to his first pro bowl this season. well it seems in carolina you have to do the impossible to get to the pro bowl, so marshall won’t get there. but when i say skewed stats, i think we should also consider who is being covered. the stats are accurate and the analysis is awesome, but, for example, if we’re playing against the texans, and gamble is getting beat by andre johnson, who exactly is marshall covering? i think the same can be said of playing atlanta twice…roddy white and who? i think marshall is very good, and i also like gamble. it’s just that for some teams, there is a big difference between the number 1 and number 2 receiver. of course our team is a prime example of that. overall, though, no one in carolina gets enough credit. when peter king (the favorite writer of all time for some of you) rated the 500 best players in the league a couple years ago (i think it was the year before Beason’s rookie season), kris jenkins and peppers were ranked higher than marshall, but no one else on carolina’s defense, including gamble and lucas. marshall is a good bump and run, single cover guy. i think some of you got down on him because those skills don’t translate well to playing zone for him. he often got lost in the zone, and he’s a solid tackler, but seems to react late to the run when playing zone. this is his first year as a starter, and i think by season’s end, everyone will realize that our secondary is a real strength (also because of sherrod martin, no doubt).

by usana_gaines on Nov 28, 2009 2:06 PM EST reply actions  

I slightly touched that argument on my fourth… mini-paragraph?

I completely agree that Gamble draws the tougher receiver to defend but we pay him to be that guy, right? He’s supposed to be our “shut down” corner, thus he’s supposed to draw these match-ups and still perform up to par, in my opinion.

If a post here on CSR, from February, still holds true, Gamble is bringing in a cool 3.5mill more than Marshall.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Nov 28, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Not so sure about that #1 and #2 WR coverage

I can’t say for certain, but I’m looking forward to verifying my assumption this Sunday — I think you’ll see Gamble playing on the left side of the defense on every play, and Marshall either on the right or covering their slot/motion receiver. Does anyone recall seeing Gamble moving around in coverage?

If I’m right, then Gamble could many times be covering the opposition’s #2 receiver — letting the offense dictate who they want to match up against.

It was that way last year when Lucas always took the right side — I think it’s the same now.

by bigdavis on Nov 28, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

After pondering for a moment..

I figured looking back at the Arizona game would provide a decent view of things. I’m still going over the charts as there is quite a bit to take in but thus far I’ve continued to find myself surprised.

Carolina’s coverage stats vs Arizona – Marshall was targeted 9 times, more so than any other defender. Harris was targeted the second-most with 6 attempts.

Perhaps the New Orleans game would provide a good perspective as well.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Nov 28, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Just checked - I was right

Gamble, while termed our “shutdown corner” and therefore credited with manning up vs the opposition’s WR#1, actually only plays the left corner, and takes whoever they put out there. Against Miami, it was Ginn, or Camarillo, or whoever.

So he gets no slack from me, vs Marshall, because he’s defending a better receiver — he’s not.

by bigdavis on Nov 28, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

It appears Marshall is really provivng to be our "stand out" corner...

Against the Saints…

Gamble covered Henderson(2/2), Meachem(3/3), and Colston(0/1). He was targeted 6 times, gave up 5 receptions for 145yds and 1TD with a “QB rating” of 118.8.

Marshall covered Meachem(2/1), Colston(2/0), and Bush(2/3). He was targeted 7 times, gave up 3 receptions for 18yds, and had a rating of 50.3.

Munnerlyn isn’t on the list, did he not play in coverage against the Saints?

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Nov 28, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

That's (1/2) and (0/2) for Marshall on Meachem and Colston, sorry.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Nov 28, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

i didn't know

that’s what’s great about this site. i didn’t know that. i guarantee you that many expert analysis who get paid well for this didn’t know that, either. i thought gamble was always on the #1. well i always liked marshall, but now this extra info solidifies how good he is to me. at the same time, it’s kind of disappointing about gamble. maybe gamble is more skilled, but takes too many chances. that can be evidenced by the number of TDs he’s given up compared to INTs he has.

by usana_gaines on Nov 29, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Let's see if that holds true this game...

Jerricho Cotchery is their #1 WR, with Braylon Edwards the #2. If Gamble were to man up on their #1, he’d follow Cotchery — I doubt he will. Look for him to stay in his accustomed LCB spot.

by bigdavis on Nov 29, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree...

And if Harris lines up on the same side as Gamble, we’ve got two ‘big hitters’ on one side and no “sure tackle”.

I love big hits, but I’d rather see a ‘big hitter’ back up a ‘sure tackle’ (or vice versa) than two ‘big hitters’ on the same side.

I use both of those terms loosely but I’m sure you guys get what I’m saying.

Double Trouble; we've got the best running backs in the NFL that never see the ball!

by D-Ranged1 on Nov 29, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

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