A Word About John Fox
by The Kackalack Kid on Oct 29, 2009 5:53 PM EDT
68 comments
I just want to preface this post by saying that I'm not much of a stats guy. As much as I appreciate all the stats-based insights and analysis here, to me the only stat that REALLY matters is the one in the win-loss column. You guys definitely seem to do your homework and know your numbers, which is more than I can say for a lot of professional "sports journalists" nowadays. Which is what brings me to the need I felt to post this, and I'll get into the meat of it after the jump. Just a reminder that this is more of an opinion piece than an analysis piece. That said....
That's right. HE MUST.
I've been reading the vitriol a lot of people have for the guy. In the Observer, in pretty much any sports periodical of note, on this blog. It bothers me. In the years of the Fox/Hurney era the Panthers have enjoyed a great deal of success, particularly for such a young franchise. Now I'm not gonna blow sunshine here and say it's been perfect. But you have to understand what firing Fox would do to this reasonably successful team.
Alright let's weed out the weak. Anyone who thinks that if the Panthers don't win a Super Bowl EVERY SINGLE YEAR they are failing, please don't read any further, as what I'm going to say will probably upset you. I know that sounds ridiculous, but honestly, this seems to be a very common mindset among most people in the Charlotte area, and I don't want to get into that kind of discussion. If you want to see the same teams win year after year, even if its your favorite or hometown team, go watch baseball. Leave my football alone.
Okay. Fox is our coach. And not just by title. John Fox brings to the table the attitude we need to win. And to me, THAT is a head coach's job. The X's and O's fall more into the realm of coordinators and their staffs. A head coach needs to motivate, inspire, and occasionally scare the hell out of players. John Fox's credentials are exactly that. Being a Bill Parcells disciple, he brings that "stiff upper lip" that makes players that have the attitude that "hey, we're gonna win.....and if we don't we're gonna beat the hell out of you". He believes in playing tough D, and running the ball to get the team to a win. It's not fancy, or spectacular, and at times it's almost tough to watch, but I think that if you went back and checked who wins and who loses in the NFL over the last 10-15 years, you'd see that the tougher teams rise above, particularly late in games when it counts the most, and DEFINITELY in playoff games. Foxy is INDISPENSIBLE if you look at it from the attitude perspective.
But even that's not it. Think about the situation we'll be in next year if we fire Fox. I'd say for sure that Delhomme has had his last good season, regardless of how we finish up this year, so we're going to be looking for a new QB next year, either in the draft or free agency, because, as some folks have detailed here on this blog, I don't think we have our FUTURE QB on the roster right now. Davidson MUST be fired, period. I'd rather have an unproven nobody than that guy, period. Our ST coordinator, whose name is NOT EVEN WORTH MENTIONING, has to go too. And I'd imagine that a Fox firing would sink Marty Hurney as well, even if he merits a job change on his own. So that means our coaching staff next year would be brand new, with Ron Meeks as the only incumbent, and only in his second year.
I've always thought we've done SUCH a great job on this team not getting caught up in all the free agent BS every year. We draft players, we develop those players, and they come in and make major contributions. That is the cheapest and most successful way to develop a football team. I have to think that one of the major reasons we do this is because of John Fox's influence, who was in turn taught this technique by Parcells, who has resurrected so many NFL teams that I don't even call him the Big Tuna anymore; I call him the Big Voodoo Priest. I know we had one of the greatest NFL talent scouts EVER in Bill Polian for a while, and while that contributed a great deal to our present talent base, I think John Fox is the reason why they stay. There have only been a few aberrations from this, both with players leaving (Witherspoon, Muhammad), and players coming in (Kemoeatu, Johnson, Diggs). And I think the reason WHY they stay is the direct effect of John Fox. I think they love playing for him, I think that he speaks to them on a level they can understand and relate to. I also think that he's created this "culture of winning" here in Carolina, and once that's gone it's tough to replace (see Dallas).
Bottom line? We fire Fox, we lose this team. Could you imagine the mass exodus of players if we have a basically ENTIRELY NEW coaching staff? You think Smitty wants to be traded now? If we make the fires we need to make, and fire Fox, or Hurney, or both, well, my friends, there's a word for that. And that word is REBUILDING. And what a waste of the all the hard work and good luck to get the players we have THAT would be. You guys ready for a rebuilding year next year? I'm not. How could we voluntarily go into rebuilding mode with THIS collection of talent?? A great O-Line. Two unbelievably talented RBs. A bonafide star at WR. Defense that is playing at the top of their bent right now. We just need a couple of pieces, and while one of those pieces is arguably the most important position on the field, we don't need a GREAT QB. We need a game manager, like the way Jake used to play. Or hell, just somebody who can turn around and hand the ball to D-Will or Stewart. I can't think that would be too hard to find, even if the guy has to come in and re-learn a system.
So yeah. Let's let Fox stay. He's made us far more successful than I ever thought we would be back in the days of Stephen Davis and company. He's a great coach. Besides, how long did it take Cowher to win in Pittsburgh? Let's give this guy the shot at winning a title he's earned here in Carolina.
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agreed
half time adjustments are my only problem with coach
by carolinabrave89 on Oct 29, 2009 6:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I shared your opinion at the start of the season.. In fact, a similar “opinion” piece is what brought me to CSR, and upon finding out the guys here were genuine fans and not just net-haters, I never left! haha
I still pretty much agree with you. Hurney needs to stay, Fox needs to stay, Meeks needs to stay, uh, yeah, my list runs out right there, the others can go.
By the way, I loved Stephen Davis. It’s a shame that his injury stopped him in his tracks like that.
by D-Ranged1 on Oct 29, 2009 6:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. Heavily.
Great post!
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
by Revshawn on Oct 29, 2009 8:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My only question is who decides the fates of Scherer and Davidson and our ST coach? Is it Fox or Hurney? If it is Fox, why is he sticking with these guys? Now I understand, this isn’t Madden 10, where you can simply change stuff like that on a dime, but if Fox is so knowledgeable, then why doesn’t he do SOMETHING about it? This team has no excuse for the way it is playing, and I still go back to training camp as a big part of this problem, and that was Fox’s decision. Sure, we had injuries, but that can happen at anytime. And it is better to have it happen then rather than now.
Don’t get me wrong, I have always liked John Fox, and have argued with people in the past over why we should keep him. But I am sick of making excuses this year. There is absolutely no excuse at all for their play this year. The old “21 of 22 starters” mantra is crap, and we are seeing that on the field. A lot of that has to do with Davidson and the playcalling. But don’t you think that they play of the offense in the preseason would have raised a red flag to Fox? Sure, we were playing “vanilla” offense. But we couldn’t even play that simple offense well. Funny thing is we seem to still be playing a vanilla style of offense now. Fox should have seen the signs that Davidson wasn’t doing a good job. Although if training camp had been its regular length we might not have had such a big problem…… oh well.
Fox cannot escape blame on this. He has had a hand in everything this season. I am not advocating for a blow up in the roster. I do feel we need coaches with more imagination, because this team has none right now, especially on offense. And we need a head coach, that inspires people to play hard on every down, not be a father on the sideline clapping after Delhomme tosses an INT saying “It’s ok guys we will get em’ back.” We need someone who will make players take responsibility for their play, and make them play harder. Be it Cowher or some assisstant on another team, but I do believe that John Fox has hit a roadblock in Carolina.
I love Fox, but this season will not be better than 5-11 and Fox will eventually have to take responsibility for it, and pay the price.
Member of Canes Country and the Cat Scratch Reader
by Ivan459 on Oct 29, 2009 11:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Glad you started this topic
I heard last night that Bill Cowher was interviewed as stating he’s now hoping to come back to coaching. Don’t know if that’s confirmed or not, but if it is, it’ll certainly stoke the fires of replacing Fox next year.
But I’m with you. There are coaching changes that need to be made, and tomorrow wouldn’t be soon enough, but we know that’s not how it works. We’ll replace Davidson and Crossman in the off-season, and hopefully find the new guys from fresh faces, and not worn re-treads, like Davidson is. His past record of now success at Cleveland always made me uneasy, and this year, it’s pain he’s in over his head. No strategy or imagination to his game plan or selection at all — being predictable is one of the worst traits in the NFL.
Compare the W/L records of Fox, Cowher, and Stranahan, up-to-last week:
Fox: 65-53 (55%), 5-3 in post-season (62%)
Cowher: 149-90 (62%), 12-9 in post-season (57%)
Shanahan: 146-98 (60%), 8-5 in post-season (61%)
I don’t think there’s a lot of difference here to maintain that Cowher offers any great advantage over the continuity of retaining Fox, and I expect Richardson would see it that way. Change the staff, yes, but not the head guy. Fox has never had a year with fewer than 7 wins — no need to rebuild.
by bigdavis on Oct 30, 2009 7:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And lets add that Fox isn't clueless when it comes to building a team
He took a 1-15 team and two years later had them in the Super Bowl. That’s better than Miami and Atlanta, so far.
by Flowing Willow on Oct 30, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice post Kid
There are plenty of reasons for Fox to stay but as a true fan the biggest reason for a change is because I’m not enjoying what I’m watching this season. It’s sloppy, uninspired football that is going to start bleeding fans real soon. I’m not one to believe that change just for the sake of change is the way to go.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
by Jaxon on Oct 30, 2009 8:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel you, Jax.
It does hurt to watch this team flounder the way they are. I just think it’s not Foxy and company. I’m thinking its more the nature of the business now…perform well one year, and get a killer schedule the next. A lot of teams, not just us, are suffering from that. Maybe the NFL should take a look at their scheduling decisions? I dunno…
by The Kackalack Kid on Oct 30, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stopped reading.... I expect us to win a SB every year.... JUST KIDDING
Great post!
People assume too often that the grass is always greener… when in reality the opposite is often true. It’s becoming harder and harder to find good coaches in the modern NFL and for every Josh McDaniels there’s a Tom Cable, every Rex Ryan there’s an Eric Mangini.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 30, 2009 8:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You have to admit though.
It wasn’t Eric’s fault that the Browns are sucking. Someone has to hire the guy. And when you hire a failure of a Jet’s coach that just got fired, and his first order of business is to tear down the Browns ‘Wall of Legends’ that celebrates the great Browns players of the past….
It kind of sends a red flag doesn’t it?
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
by Revshawn on Oct 30, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHOA!
Let me see if I can get my brain around this weeks turn around. First let’s get rid of Jake, then NO let’s give him one more chance to screw it up and now Fox and Hurney need to STAY because there isn’t any better coaching out there. I think I am going to go read the comics they are closer to reality.
by Cwilly1 on Oct 30, 2009 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s not what has been said.
Jake is getting the chance to right the wrongs from last year, meanwhile we’re saving Moore (and Feeley, I guess) from the possibility of getting pounded. Would you like to see Arizona ruin two of our QB’s or continue to beat up on the one they’ve already started? Besides, they say the QB coach is no longer going to be “fixing” Jake’s mechanics. So it’ll be interesting to see how things turn out.
What they’re saying is, however, that changing head coaches puts us in a rebuilding mode, something like Tampa (a team with a lot of talent, a rookie qb, and a changing of direction that has left them lost). If we can fix our play calling and such without having to go so drastic as change HC’s, that’s clearly the better option, it’ll save Carolina A LOT of time in the next off season not having to adjust to a new coach’s philosophy.
Perhaps Fox should begin calling the plays so that we can truly see if the fault lies on Davidson or if it is Fox that is doing us damage.
by D-Ranged1 on Oct 30, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um…I never said Fox needs to go. Not ever once.
by The Kackalack Kid on Oct 30, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
way off
I completely disagree with letting Fox stay. You look at the past and it warrants some consideration, but at this point, the team is losing badly because of decisions Fox made, and we are not prepared to compete in the future. We have two kickers, no good QBs and no good return men. How can you say the OC and ST coach need to be fired and not Fox? They are here because of him. The guy killing people with the wildcat in Miami is the guy we fired to pick up Davidson. Fox is the leader and he is responsible. You say the head coach isn’t supposed to be an X’s and O’s guy, but he has to be. How can he be the OC’s boss if he doesn’t understand the X’s and O’s. And since Fox was once a DC, he understands them very well. Yet when what we’re doing isn’t working, nothing changes. Fox is responsible for all that is wrong in Carolina because he is the coach. Every organization is a reflection of its leadership. Fox chose not to bring in any QBs to compete after the playoff game last year. Fox chose to let Mark Jones go. Fox chose to cut Keyshawn because we drafted Jarrett. Fox chooses to keep Dan Connor on the bench. Fox chose to let Kris Jenkins leave. Now he’s trying to do a repair job to salvage his job, but he seems to have a sense of urgency only when his job is on the line – after the 7-9 season and now. He should recognize that we are always one or two play or players from losing, so he should always have the sense of urgency to win now. I think Fox has a style of play that isn’t working, but he refuses to adjust. He’s decided his way is the best way, and he’d rather lose doing it his way than trying something else to win. If we fire him now, we have a large selection of proven coaches to choose from, and we could pick up a guy who has built a team into a SUperbowl winning team. If we keep Fox and continue to go back and forth between 7-9 and 12-4 without winning a playoff game, are we really making progress? Settling for not winning it all isn’t the standard we fans should settle for.
Fox and the whole crew should be fired, including Jake. If they rebound and finsih 8-8, they should still be fired.
by usana_gaines on Oct 30, 2009 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
rebuilding years are great, im sure Bucs fans are loving it.
by EyeSack on Oct 30, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rebuilding?
we wouldn’t have a rebuilding year like tampa is having because they have very little talent. who do they have that’s comparable to d-will, beef stew, smitty, gross, otah, beason, davis, peppers and gamble? we have tons of talent, we just don’t use it right. the steelers didn’t rebuild when tomlin came in, the bucs didn’t rebuild when gruden showed up, turner didn’t rebuild in san diego, and our next coach won’t be rebuilding either.
by usana_gaines on Oct 30, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you’re right, we wouldn’t be rebuilding like they are. I’m just hesitant about your gutting the coaching staff idea. New doesn’t necessarily always mean better. Something is amiss in the Panther’s staff, it’s apparent, I don’t think drastic changes are necessary though. Why change the engine when only the oil needs replacing?
by EyeSack on Oct 30, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To call Tampa a team without talent is an overstatement. Their o-line could use work and their defense is suffering from the same thing ours is, being on the field too much per game.
Cadillac and Ward could be deadly but they aren’t seeing enough holes or opportunities to create plays. Regardless, all four running backs (Williams, Stewart, Cadillac, Ward) are all averaging 4+ yards per carry, the highest being Stewart with 4.8. As far as running backs go, both teams are getting similar production when called upon.
Their defense needs to tighten up but that’s not to say they’re completely without talent.
Johnson and Leftwich have combined for 8 touchdowns (4 each) and 11 interceptions, similar to Delhomme with 4 touchdowns and 11 interceptions. They’re now relying on rookie the Freeman, while we’re still contemplating Moore and Feeley.
The Panthers and the Buc’s are, in a lot of ways, already eerily similar. We may have more talent but to say the Buc’s have little seems to be a stretch.
Coaches that take over winning teams need not rebuild, the Panthers right now aren’t a winning team and thus a new coach would likely rebuild the foundation if nothing else. The philosophy would change, a lot would change, it would be an adjustment that would take some time to get used to.
We’d be a lot closer to Tampa’s shoes than one would think.
by D-Ranged1 on Oct 30, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's not a stretch
i don’t beleive it’s a stretch. who do they have on defense with talent? okay, no talent is a stretch, but they do not have nearly the talent we do. ward and williams are no d-will and stew. they have no one like smitty, but it’s their lack of talent on defense that i think sets us apart. they do have that safety who returned jake’s int for a TD, though. i forget his name, but i think he’s pretty good.
eyesack said new isn’t necessarily better. well, obviously, it depends. there is singletary instead of nolan in san fran, and then there was mangini instead of crennel. i say gut the whole coaching staff only because i think it’s a mistake when you tell the head coach who his coordinators are gonna be. look at the cowboys. the problem with that, though, is that meeks has the defense looking better than they have since week 6 last year.
by usana_gaines on Oct 30, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talib ran with Smith all day, rare even when Smith isn’t getting the ball. Ronde is on the other side. They’ve both out-performaned our cornerbacks statistically. I don’t follow Tampa enough to comment on the rest of their defense.
Smith is a unique player, not every team is going to have a Steve Smith at WR, we’re lucky. Overall, though, they have a deeper pool than we do. We’re throwing check downs or to Smith, meanwhile they’ve got options in Clayton, Bryant, and Stroughter (11/154; 16/229; 16/214). Winslow is also a talented tight end. That’s with Leftwich and Johnson at QB… I’d argue neither are as good as Delhomme but at the moment, that’s way too far up in the air. They’ve all three played terrible this season, I guess that’s the best way to put it. lol
You’re right, Tampa is not as talented as we are, but they’re still one QB away from being a contender, just like we are.
I’d place Williams above all but Caddy above Stewart and Stewart above Ward but the differences in the o-line will always obscure that in stats.
If Freeman turns out to be a decent QB, Tampa is not going to look near as much the hapless team they are now but they still won’t be as good as us, this season. If we get rid of Fox and don’t find our “QB of the future”, the roles could very easily switch next season.
It’s a guessing game in which the grass always seems greener on the other side because of what we “could do”.
by D-Ranged1 on Oct 30, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we are one tebow away from winning it all
Dungy said if he ran St. Louis, he’d draft Tebow high in the first round. “Franchise quarterbacks are hard to fine, and I believe in this guy,” Dungy said.
Dan asked Dungy if Sam Bradford, Colt McCoy, Jake Locker and Jimmy Clausen were available, would he take Tebow over all of them. Dungy said yes, he’d take Tebow.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/blog/84261/index.html?eref=fromSI#ixzz0VV8TUeLE
by usana_gaines on Oct 31, 2009 4:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony Dungy: Amazing coach, amaing QB evaluator… not so much
As a head coach Dungy has only drafted a QB once.
1999: Shaun King, 2nd round (no longer in the league)
I wouldn’t exactly think he was amazing at evaluating the position.
Tim Tebow’s stats:
- 14th in the nation in rating
- 87th in the nation in passing yards
- 76th in the nation in passing TD’s
- 31st in the nation in completion percentage
All this, with the best offensive recruits in football?
No thanks.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 31, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, John Fox isn’t the only one who makes decisions on hirings and firings. And nobody’s gonna know how well someone can scheme at the coordinator positions until they are given a couple years to have a body of work to dissect. And Henning, the guy we fired, was a knee-jerk reaction, and one that I disagreed with, but was solicited because of all the fan- and media-speak after an unsuccessful year. Kinda like what happened to Schottenheimer in San Diego, and also kinda like what you’re talking about Fox right now.
Okay so about “Fox’s decisions”….Jones left because we weren’t about to pay a guy who does nothing but return kicks what he wanted to get paid. I’m down with that. I saw Key as a salary cap casualty, as will happen with veteran players in today’s NFL. Unfortunate, but I was mostly down with that. As far as Dan Connor goes, I mean, the guy’s a Mike, dude. You would play him over Beason? And Jenkins spent two years at the Pro Bowl for us, and the other two on injured reserve, and the trade that we made that moved him out of Carolina got us Charles Godfrey AND Gary Barnidge. So yeah, I’m down with that.
I think that anything can look bad when looked at under the microscope, but if you take a step back and not let the trees block your view of the forest, you’ll see that this organization’s good decisions pretty much outweigh their bad ones.
by The Kackalack Kid on Oct 30, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how can you blame davidson for the offense. i’m sure he’d like to be more creative but fox more than likely won’t let him. henning had a boring offense, they let him go, and he has a good, creative offense in miami. fox likes the conservative offense: run, run, run.
do you think if fox stays and jake doesn’t retire, fox/hurney will go after a QB in the draft? what happens if bradford or pike were to fall into our lap? would fox take him? i don’t think so. he has such a blind loyalty to jake and the conservative run, run, play action pass that he wouldn’t take a QB that is more accurate.
by rkpanthers on Oct 30, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Henning
This is always an interesting topic of discussion for me personally. I defended Henning when he was in Charlotte but no one would listen. Now it seems like Henning is more or less justified with what he is doing in Miami now. I remember Henning putting up alot of points in the Super Bowl run – and he had a damn good gameplan against Philly (bringing out the “Philly” formation for the first time). Henning really was a scapegoat and it took until now for people to realize it.
As long as John Fox is our coach, we will run first and try to have a “boring” offense. It isn’t boring to me, but it probably is to the majority of fans. Running on 3rd and long, playing conservative, etc. But I don’t recall people complaining about Fox’s offense when we went to the Super Bowl. If you recall, Jake had his worst statistical year (this season will obviously surpass that) in 03.
by R-F on Oct 30, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A question to the fans who advocate firing John Fox:
If you had all the power over the team and you fired John Fox, who would you hire to be the head coach of the Carolina Panthers, and why?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 30, 2009 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t advocate firing Fox yet but if such were to happen, I’d bring in Cowher.
That would provide the least amount of transition “shock” as the two have similar philosophies, in my opinion.
Cowher, as Pittsburgh’s head coach, is also 3-1 against us. (Has a losing record to only 7 teams in the NFL w/ Pittsburgh)
I feel he would utilize Williams and Stewart to their respective potentials.
His, um, “coaching style” (cant-speak-the-next-morning-because-I-spent-three-hours-yelling-last-night) might just be what Carolina needs…
Those are just a few reasons I can think of at the moment but, as I said, I’m not quite advocating Fox-be-gone yet, just Davidson-be-gone.
by D-Ranged1 on Oct 30, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
James it's not firing Fox that gets me, it's the flip flopping back and forth
Jerry Richardson is going to do what ever he feels he needs to do. We just can’t seem to settle on what we want seen done for the team. It’s like that Brett Farve’s commercial where he is looking at TV’s. He says" yes I’ll take it"and then a second later he says “Well I don’t know”. There were comments earlier by people on this blog saying get rid of Jake, Fox and Hurney now the same people are saying no let’s keep them. Which is it?
by Cwilly1 on Oct 30, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why none of us make the decisions.
Fans flip flop, always have, always will. It’s part of every franchise in every sport.
Without getting too philosophical, I believe one of the biggest problems in modern society is the inability to change one’s mind, or position after gaining new information without being labeled a ‘flip flopper’.
I don’t know where I stand on John Fox. I know the potential he has as a coach, but there have been questionable decisions. What I fear is a San Diego Chargers situation where they forced out Marty Schottenheimer when he was coaching the team amazingly, and went to Norv Turner who has taken the exact same team and gotten less performance out of them.
I like the idea of change, as it’s refreshing. But not every team can luck out like the Broncos are replace an established coach with someone who is as good, or better.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 30, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If, at the end of this season, there’s no turn around, then the options are there. However, I would like to know that Fox is what is hurting us, not Davidson. What if it is Davidson’s play calling, we go and dump Fox, and end up with a crappy new coach? We end up dumping Fox for no reason.
I think Fox should take over play calling and thus we will find out who’s at fault.
By the way, James made a great point. Fans can do that. It’s not like we’re paid for our opinions anyways, so who says we can’t alter our opinions with every bit of news that drops?
If it comes to be that Fox takes over the play calling and we come back, are you not going to “flip flop” to keeping Fox while getting rid of Davidson?
by D-Ranged1 on Oct 30, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fire fox
i understand what Cwilly1 is saying, but it’s real simple…we want to win. i say fire fox, get rid of jake, and let’s move on. i’ve also said let jake start and run the no huddle. the thing is that we want to win, but most of us would like to win it all with fox and jake. i would love for jake to turn it around and prove fox right by having the best 10 games of his life the rest of the season. that’s what i want, but what i think we should do is let jake run a no huddle and call his own plays. if we’re not gonna run a no huddle, then let moore or feeley start. don’t ask jake to do the same thing he’s been failing at the entire season. that makes no sense. the coaches seem to want jake to turn it around, but what are they doing to help? verbal votes of confidence are the same as jake’s comments…just words. we want to win and we have the talent to win. but we’re losing. so someone needs to do something, and it seems that the only one trying to do anything different is jake, but what he’s doing isn’t working.
by usana_gaines on Oct 30, 2009 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who’s your pick for head coach?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 30, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sean mc dermott
Im not a fan of retread head coaches. I would keep meeks on. If I didnt offer him the head job. I like attacking style defenses, so thats where the mcdermott comes in. If I wanted to go with an offensive guy then I would pay Jason Garrett and work something out with ole Jerry Jones.
by sincedayone on Nov 1, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No huddle
If you think the defense is tired now, what will happen when we get even less possession of the ball? Geez.
by R-F on Oct 30, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no huddle
the defense is tired cuz they don’t stop people and they’re on the field more without the no huddle cuz we keep turning it over and going 3 and out. if we go no huddle for 9 plays and score, the defense gets more rest than when we throw picks or go 3 and out.
by usana_gaines on Oct 31, 2009 5:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense
Has done pretty well IMO. Three straight great games. They stop people, just not when the opposition starts inside our redzone.
If we go no huddle for 9 plays and score that about = a regular three and out with the clock running after every play. It really isn’t that long. Plus, I’d be willing to bet we still go three and out just as much running the no huddle anways……except we would be coming off the field on offense after taking about 30 seconds off the clock. Terrible.
This notion that the no huddle will work the whole game is pretty baseless IMO. Yeah, we tend to move the ball when we run the no huddle in the last two minutes of the half. Maybe it is because we are looking at a terribly small sample size or maybe it is because the defense is playing bend but don’t break and we’re just taking whatever they give us. To say that we could run the no huddle and put up a ton of points is not something that I even remotely believe in. We just don’t have the personnel.
by R-F on Oct 31, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No huddle offense isn't to help our D..
…it’s to prevent their D from substituting. This can be very valuable, providing we are satisfied keeping the same offensive personnel in there, without a sub of our own. It also can help to prevent proper defensive alignments from being communicated.
All of that’s for naught if are play-calling isn’t sharp enough to take advantage of the d they’ve got on the field — and since that tends to put it more n the QB than the OC — I’m all for it!
by bigdavis on Oct 31, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, like I said, Jake’s probably done as QB. I cannot disagree with that. I wish it wasn’t true but there’s no sense arguing that. But, in my mind, Jake’s play is the issue, not what Fox is doing on the sideline. Or in the locker room. I think that WITHOUT character guys like Fox, this team would have imploded after 0-3.
by The Kackalack Kid on Oct 30, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly believe this to be the case
Now, of course, there is no way to prove it. But to me, Fox is a high character guy and still has the respect of his players.
by R-F on Oct 31, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not flip flopping…
1- New quarterback (don’t have to get rid of Jake he would make a great backup!)
2- Hurney be gone!!! (I think just about anyone would make a better fit here)
3- As much as I like Fox it’s time for a change… Cowher is my pick!
by Advocatus on Oct 30, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Im with usana...
Fox is way too inconsistant & stubborn to be the coach now. Maybe six years ago he was the right fit but its time to move on now. This team continues to have the same issues every year(no reliable backup QB, special teams is always a joke, no adjustments at halftime, no new wrinkles in play calling on both sides of the ball). Im tired of seeing these same things over & over every year.
"it's a bad day to have a bad day"
by D.W.G. on Oct 30, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who’s your pick for head coach?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 30, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't want Fox fired.
BUT, he needs to reevaluate his support.
As it pertains to special teams, it is like the Titanic, but they had a band.
by univonc on Oct 30, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, James.
Who indeed. Who can come in and make an immediate, lasting change that will show up in the win-loss column? A guy who’s been out of the league for a couple of years? Or would it be a young, unproven guy “a la” Sean Payton or Josh McDaniels?
Or would it be none of the above? I just think the “risk-vs-reward” issue with firing Fox leaves us with a hell of a lot more risk than reward.
by The Kackalack Kid on Oct 30, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on guys
Answer this, he’s asked this three times already, who do we replace Fox with?
by Flowing Willow on Oct 31, 2009 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cowher
i would replace fox with cowher. the risk vs reward fear is not an excuse to avoid change. fox has been good, but he fails to make adjustments during halftime. i don’t think he really coaches on sundays. he gives the team some direction and let’s them go play. if they don’t execute in the first half, they come out in the second and do the exact same thing. cowher is better at making halftime adjustments and motivating players. we have the talent, and the schedule is no excuse in my opinion. if cowher was not available, i’d bring in shanahan, or marty-ball is he’s still available/wants to coach. maybe even tony dungy…
by usana_gaines on Oct 31, 2009 5:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Cowher was judged to the same standard as Fox
Then Cowher would have been fired from Pittsburgh well before he won his only Super Bowl.
by R-F on Oct 31, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right!
Fire the coach for a 6-10 season, and Cowher would have been gone after 1999. By the way, he had the identical record in ’03. In 2004, they went 15-1 though.
The point is this. We know Fox can coach. We know he’s not happy with a 3-4 record, and the struggling that is going on. Give hime time to straighten it out. This isn’t an instant gratification process, like getting some fast food. Be patient, and the results will come. If after being patient, they do not come, then revisit the idea of getting rid of him.
by DrTarheel on Nov 3, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, we have a GREAT backup QB in McCown….it’s just that he’s injured. The guy played very well in what little preseason time he got a chance to play. And you’re tired of seeing the same things every year? You’re gonna get that from almost any HC; that’s what coaches do. They bring their system in and apply the talent on-the-field to make that system work. I agree ST is generally extremely bad, which is why Crossman needs to be fired.
This “halftime adjustments” thing everyone keeps talking about….I may sound naive or something here but I don’t like the idea of that. The whole point of having a defensive-minded, run-first approach is it allows you to dictate the tempo and direction of the game. It seems somehow defeatist to say “well, our plan isn’t working…let’s scrap it and try something we haven’t really practiced or gameplanned”. I just do not believe that with proper EFFORT and EXECUTION (which is on the PLAYERS, not the coaches) our system is a fundamental failure. Too many have won championships in the past with it. And let me reiterate, NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, we’re gonna have a couple of stinkers a year. At least. Doesn’t mean our system is bad, or we’re not making halftime adjustments. I say, let the other team adjust to us. Besides, I wonder if all the passing we’ve been doing late in games instead of running the ball like we should is a result of these so-called “halftime adjustments”? I dunno…I just like playing football OUR way, not THEIR way. Win or lose.
by The Kackalack Kid on Oct 30, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously?
you think if the other team is bringing 4 guys on one side and we only have 2 blockers, we shouldn’t adjust? we should just tell our guys to work harder. you don’t have to change the whole system, but how does the defense do something and the coaches have no answer for it at all? if you gameplanned something and it isn’t working, how is it defeatist to acknowledge that it isn’t working? if we throw 20 times and run 8 times, and we’re losing horribly, how is it defeatist to run more in the second half, or to run more play action or screens? that’s not defeatist. you win by making adjustments. you see what the other team is doing because they are not guaranteed to do exactly what you planned for (unless it’s fox), and then you adjust if you are prepared to adjust. if you are not prepared, you say, hey guys, play harder. and you blame them for a lack of execution? maybe the coaches should make some adjustments. if the qb has all day to throw and we’re not getting any pressure, maybe we should make some adjustments. fox doesn’t do that. we don’t adjust. we just come out and do the exact same thing and hope it works if the guys work harder.
by usana_gaines on Oct 31, 2009 5:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, fire Hurney
Hire Bill Polian’s son Chris. He is young, hungry, and learned from the master.
He has worked his way up the ladder.
food for thought…..
by univonc on Oct 30, 2009 5:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I could make a concession on that. Firing Hurney could be something. And I have been hearing rumblings about Chris Polian from some friends of mine who are close to the biz.
by The Kackalack Kid on Oct 30, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way.
Marty Hurney is the Boss.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
by Revshawn on Oct 30, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I beg to differ
Jerry Richardson is the boss and he started showing it when he got rid of Mark and Jon and hired a new manager. I think he will do the same later, maybe after the end of the year but he will do it and I feel he has people in his sights.
by Cwilly1 on Oct 30, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me why Hurney deserves to go
The same reason Schottenheimer deserved to go after building that 14-2 team? Lets look at Hurney’s track record, are we a better team, and consistently better, since he was brought in? The answer to that is a resounding “YES!”
by Flowing Willow on Oct 31, 2009 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bottom line is this: Do you like having absolute stars being drafted with the Panthers 1st picks?
Like having players like Jon Beason, Thomas Davis, and Jeff Otah being drafted to your team? Then don’t get rid of Hurney. He’s the direct result of all of those players being drafted, he’s a guru when it comes to rookies.
If we ever win a championship, Marty Hurney will be one of the most important names that come to mind. He has a way of finding talent, sometimes at the top of the round ((Sherrod Martin and Everette Brown)) and going down the rounds he can always find a bargain. Expect 5th rounder Duke Robinson to take care of the spot left by Vincent when he either leaves or retires.
As I’ve said before: Marty Hurney is the boss.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
by Revshawn on Nov 2, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
We have a higher percentage of 1st round picks become Pro-Bowlers in the Marty Hurney era than any other team.
We still need to make that jump where we turn the majority of our 3rd – 7th round picks into starters.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 2, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say we do fairly well there as well, compared to other teams
Successful players from the 3rd to seventh rounds include, from the start of the Furney era:
2002: Will Witherspoon, 3rd, starting LB, successful for us, the Rams, and the Eagles. Dante Wesley, 4th, key special teamer for us and the Bears.
2003: Ricky Manning, 3rd, started for a few years, then went on to the Bears. I think he’s with the Raiders now.
2004: Travelle Wharton, 3rd, key cog in the O-line, played LT for a while, moved to his more natural LG position.
2005: Evan Mathis, 3rd, solid backup guard for us at one point. Adam Seward, 4th, good backup/special teamer who would have started for some teams in a 3-4 (see Patriots) Geoff Hangartner, 4th, Need I say more. Jovan Haye, 5th, not great for us, solid for others including Bucs and Titans.
2006: James Anderson, 3rd, special teamer and spot starter. Jeff King, 5th, solid starting TE.
2007: Charles Johnson, 3rd, The future at DE for the Panthers. Dante Rosario, 5th, The Ghost of Wesley Walls. CJ Wilson, 7th, nice backup DB.
2008: Charles Godfrey, 3rd, Starter at FS from day one. Dan Connor, 3rd, great backup LB. Gary Barnidge, 5th, Another threat at TE. Mackenzy Bernadeau, 7th, nice backup, next Hangartner maybe.
It is a bit early to speak on this years draft, but with Fiametta, Goodson, Munnerlynn, and Robinson, it looks promising. We aren’t getting regular starters as often as a fan would like, but we are getting guys who can produce.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 3, 2009 5:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Im not making a pick just asking a question.
Alot of people say they want Cowher, mainly I thnk this is cause he showed intrest in us awhile back and hasnt taken another job so people think hes waiting for this one to open. I dont disagree with these people I just want to know why many other great coaches arent discussed in and out as much as he. Coaches like: ( in no particular order)
Shanahan
Schottinheimer
Gruden
Holgram
Please give me some kind of breakdown on why or why not these guys would or wouldnt work as well as Cowher for us.
Thanks everybody!
by hacory1 on Nov 1, 2009 12:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally would want Cowher (although I’m fine with Fox) because he shares a similar power running style as Fox, only not so much as conservative, I don’t believe. Less “shock” to the team in the way of changing schemes, plus our strengths match the strengths he likes to play towards.
Shanahan has been discussed but it seems people think his style is less of a match for Carolina, meanwhile others think he is our best option. I’d say, from what I’ve read, Shanahan is closest behind Cowher as far as support goes.
Gruden never really proved himself much of a coach.. He took Dungy’s team to the Super Bowl and seemed to just go down hill each year following.
The other two I’ve not heard much mention of around here.
Dungy is another coach I wouldn’t mind seeing if Fox really has to go at the end of the season.
by D-Ranged1 on Nov 1, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all for us hiring the next best thing at coordinator
IF…. Fox goes. Which will not happen. I think with an upgrade at OC, our problems this year are significantly less. People keep forgetting the usual reasons to change head coaches are because of three things.
(A)-They are losing too much and the team needs retooling (see Gruden last year).
(B)-They have lost the ear of the players (Del Rio this year).
©-They are not meeting expectations set by the owner and fans, no matter how high (see Schottenheimer a few years back).
The Panthers do not need retooling, Fox still has the players by the ear, and really the only reasonable excuse to fire him is C, we expect to make the playoffs every year, now that we haven’t, fire him. C is a knee-jerk reaction, the type we have been burned on in the past, see Henning for a perfect example.
by Flowing Willow on Nov 1, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you D-Ranged1
Thank you for yur breakdown man. I think your spot on with the cowher opinion. His style wouldnt be that far off from foxy.
As far as Shanahan goes, if we are getting a new head coach wouldnt that mean the past coaches philosophy needed changing? Mabey Shan would be a breath of fresh air.
Gruden also did well in Oakland too, which many coaches cant say they did that.
True Dungy would be a thought but I dont think he is ready to coach again
I thought of another one mabey you could break down for me.
How about Brian Billick? He coached Baltimore for awhile and I dont think his game plan was far off from foxys.
Jeff Fisher might not be back in Tenn. How would he fair in Carolina?
Thanks again for the feed back mabey I should get an article together so everyone can give their opinion.
by hacory1 on Nov 1, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is none of those names I can say I would prefer over Fox
except Gruden, but only because he would provide much better interviews ;)
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
by Jaxon on Nov 2, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
credit for fox
i have stated i want fox to go, but i’m feeling good, so i decided to keep it positive, sort of. there are some coaches i want to compare him to. richie rich might remember some of these guys before he fires fox. we need a qb. gruden had five on the roster last year, and none of them are starting today. marinelli lost 26 of 27. mora blamed his kicker for a loss…embarrassed him and called him out, but has given him no credit publicly for his good games. petrino quit after 13 games. mangini kept favre’s injury a secret and got the jets franchise fined. anderson has a qb rating of 40, but he starts cuz if quinn takes a certain number of snaps, he gets a bonus. gable (or cable, don’t know the raiders coach name) beats up his assistants, wives and girlfriends. imagine if fox choked out trgo after the playoff game last year. then there was what george siefert did to us.
by usana_gaines on Nov 1, 2009 1:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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