Panthers’ Monday Morning Optimist 10/19/09
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 10:19 AM EDT
93 comments
The whistle blew, the ball was dead, and then there were two.
The Carolina Panthers improved their record to 2-3 winning a key divisional matchup against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Was it a pretty win? Absolutely not... but at least we played Carolina Panther football, arguably for the first time this season.
The game was fairly typical of any Carolina v. Tampa affair; Smashmouth, hard fought, and emotions were high, especially after Dante Wesley's hit on Clifton Smith to finish the first half. The game was closer than it should have been, but the Buccaneers always rise to the occasion when playing us. So, it feels good to escape Tampa with a win when it could have very easily gone the other way.
DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart were men possessed, tearing apart the Buccaneer's defense for 262 yards and three scores. A lot of the credit needs to go to the offensive line for their stellar blocking against Tampa. Yes, sometimes they allowed penetration, but overall they pushed back Tampa's line and got the better of them. Jeff Davidson also deserves credit. He displayed inspired running play selection, choosing to burn the Bucs in the 1st half with Williams, then lay the hammer down, leaning on Stewart to batter the Bucs D in the 2nd half when they were reeling.
The same kudos cannot be given to the Panthers' passing attack, which was wholly atrocious on Sunday. Jake Delhomme displayed a severe lack of accuracy on deep passes to Steve Smith twice in the first half, continuing the poor performance with two interceptions, the second of which was a terrible read and allowed for a pick six by safety Tanard Jackson. The receivers didn't make it much easier for Delhomme, as both Smith and Muhammad were continually shut down by opposing corners Aqib Talib and Ronde Barber respectively.
I wrote in my Wednesday ‘Hump Day Prognostication' column that the keys to Carolina's victory would be to stop Kellen Winslow, and contain Josh Johnson's ability to run. Carolina defense shut down Winslow effectively, and while allowing Johnson to get some vital first downs they mostly contained him. The defense deserves a lot of credit this week it was the offense and special teams who almost beat us, not the Buccaneers.
Optimistic
DeAngelo Williams- Extremely Optimistic: What a way to bounce back. After a wholly horrible game against the Redskins, DeAngelo got his game back this week. Running for 5 ypc Williams was the furnace that kept the Panthers' offense burning. Williams could have the best patience in the backfield of any RB in the NFL. He calmly sits in the backfield, waits for his blocks to develop and strikes when the time is right.
Jonathan Stewart- Extremely Optimistic: Are we still worried that he's injured? Stewart continued his fourth quarter domination of the Redskins carrying his performance over into Sunday's game. While Williams got the bulk of the carries, J-Stew made the most of the carries he got. Beef Stew ran for 6.4 ypc and tore apart a beleaguered Bucs defense in the second half.
Julius Peppers- Extremely Optimistic: Here you go Julius, don't let me down. From worst, to first in the manor of weeks Julius Peppers has proved himself to be worthy of the lofty contract. He displayed another dominant performance this week with 2 sacks, 7 tackles and 1 FF, a great game by Peppers.
Thomas Davis- Extremely Optimistic: I should almost start evaluating players on a scale with Thomas Davis being the epitome of excellence. It will be a crime if Davis isn't selected to his first pro bowl this season. His performance Sunday should show that, 8 tackles, 1 interception. There is no player benefitting more from Ron Meeks' defense than Thomas Davis.
Ron Meeks and the Carolina D- Extremely Optimistic: In my mind, it's time we all started getting on the Ron Meeks bandwagon. Prior to Sunday only one team allowed the Buccaneers to get less yardage, the NY Giants in week 3. The Carolina D has been stuffing teams this season as yesterday showed, the Bucs only had 244 yards, shy of their 277 season average. The Panthers are continually holding teams and the score doesn't do justice to their dominance on Sunday.
Captain Munnerlyn- Somewhat Optimistic: Great punt return from the Captain. Hopefully that was the first of many to come.
Everette Brown and Charles Johnson- Somewhat Optimistic: I debated giving them the full distinction this week, but they fell just shy. I packaged our two young DEs together as they represent the future. Combining for 4 tackles, 2 sacks and 3 FF, Panther fans should rest assured that we have hope in a defensive line era A.P (after Peppers).
Offensive Line- Somewhat Optimistic: They had some bad protection here and there, but overall did a very solid job on Sunday. They opened up good lanes, got some push and dominated the point of attack. Now, they just need to chain these good performances together.
Pessimistic
Jake Delhomme- Extremely Pessimistic: O Jake, where art thou? Jake's serviceable performance against the Redskins last week isn't enough to silence the cries of change from the masses. Jake played very poorly on Sunday and was bailed out by the offensive line and running game. I refuse to believe that Jake is ‘done'. However, I do believe he has lost a lot of confidence as a QB. For a QB who plays with fire and emotion he needs that confidence, and needs to find it fast. These performances used to be the exception; unfortunately they are becoming the rule. Despite all this, he is still our best option to win in 2009. For the people suggesting Fox makes the switch to Matt Moore I would suggest you look at Moore's preseason stat lines. Look at his numbers against opponent's third teams and still say with a straight face that he will turn this team around against first team defenses.
Steve Smith and Muhsin Muhammad- Extremely Pessimistic: Yes, it's on them too. Other than two deep opportunities in the first half neither Smith nor Muhammad were able to break away from their opposing CBs. This is especially true of Smith who failed to get any form of adequate separation from Aqib Talib other than the opportunities in the first quarter. These two are fierce competitors and in the past their performance was able to hide a lot of Delhomme's inadequacies. They need to return to that form if the passing game stands a chance in 2009.
Dante Wesley- Extremely Pessimistic: Should be more like ‘extremely disappointed'. His heinous hit on Tampa PR Clifton Smith will be the sole reason the Panthers are displayed on the national media this week. He will be fined, likely suspended and there was really no need for the hit. We are an organization who is always held in high regard as one of the classiest, this was an extremely unclassy move.
Special Teams- Somewhat Pessimistic: They avoid the ‘extremely' designation, but only slightly, and mostly because of last week's performance. A great PR by Captain Munnerlyn and good coverage on most kickoffs were overshadowed by allowing a blocked FG and horrible coverage allowing a TD by Sammie Stroughter. They need to play better; it's a simple as that.
Overall Analysis
At least we got our identity back. Why we haven't been running the ball 47 times and passing 17 times all season is beyond me. The truth is our RBs are too good for the vast majority of teams to stop. Last week vs. Washington the running game let us down (for the most part) and the passing game stepped up; this week the roles were reversed.
The Carolina Panthers remain a team who has all the cogs to be a successful machine in this league, but they're not all spinning at the right time. The good news, we're getting closer. Each week one more phase of the game is moving from negative to positive. We have one more game against a legitimate weak opponent next week before we get into the hard part of the schedule. If Jake plays like he did against Washington, the RBs play like they did against Tampa then we have a very solid offense. If Peppers continues his recent solid play and Thomas Davis remains the rock then we have a very solid defense. We just need to put it all together, simple as that.
70% Optimistic heading back to BoA to face Buffalo.
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Nailed it James
I’m optimistic for another week and then we shall see. Someone mentioned the wind was effecting the deep balls, not sure if that was the cause or not but the Panthers took two shots downfield and they were not close.
Even the most diehard Delhomme fan has to be feeling pessimistic on him at this point. But if we can run the ball our D should keep us in most games this season.
It was fun to see the Bucs unable to prevent even 5 yards per carry.
I blog the Carolina Panthers at www.catscratchreader.com
Grammar point
Jaxon, it’s “affecting”, not “effecting”.
For a guy who posts so much, I thought I’d fill you in. Although, it seems like basic grammar is not a very big deal in the blogging world.
This is a very common error, but for some reason I get a bit anal when I see it. I enjoy your posts. Keep it up. Go Panthers!
Great Summary
I am feeling very optimistic heading into the bills game, however, they are coming off a big win against the NY Jets. A game in which they picked off Mark Sanchez 5 times. I do hope that Delhomme can find a way to stop stinking up our otherwise good showings.
The Bills may be without their starting QB Trent Edwards this week (which im not really sure if that is a good or bad thing) as long as we can stop Marshawn Lynch and Fred Jackson from getting going, we should create hell in the pocket for whatever QB is taking the snaps for Buffalo. Out front 7 is playing inspired football right now, and the DBs are locking down their receivers enough to get good pressure. Look at all the times Johnson had to scramble or throw the ball away in the TB game. You can guarantee the QB we face from Buffalo will not be nearly as mobile.
Jeff Davidson deserves some of the blame for your pessimism on Steve Smith. We are simply not getting him involved. Yes, we are playing Panther football, lots of runs. Yes, we have an awful QB. But, we should mix in some WR screens, short hitch and crossing routes, or even some Reverse/End-Around plays to make use of one of our most valuable offensive weapons, even at a time where Jake couldnt hit the ocean while standing on the beach.
I agree with your post
Why not maybe try a Wildcat formation with Steve Smith taking a snap? Or have him running in motion, ball snapped to Williams for a quick read/handoff to Smith for an end-around.
How does this get fixed?
I’m very supportive of Jake, I truly believe he’s the best quarterback on our roster. I also believe that Smith is the best receiver we have. So why can’t we put the two together any more? And who’s responsibility is it to make it happen?
Smith was thrown to five times yesterday. Of those five, the first one was a deep left that was overthrown, the second was another overthrown deep left, the third was yet ANOTHER deep left, the fourth was a deep middle that was intercepted, and then finally there was a short slant to the right where Smith picked up four yards.
Jake threw the ball 17 times. Eight were incomplete or intercepted. Of the interceptions, one was due to great defense and the other was a bad decision. Let’s look at what Jake missed:
- Three deep left balls to Smitty
- One deep middle to Smitty that was intercepted on a bad throw into coverage.
- One deep middle to Rosario
- A short left and short right to Rosario
- A short middle to Moose that was intercepted on a tipped ball.
Now look at his completions:
- Five short right
- Two short left
- Two short middle
His average gain per COMPLETED pass was 7.2 yards. Last year he averaged 7.2 yards per ATTEMPT. This begs a few questions.
- First and foremost, is Jake just plain done as a quarterback? I’m not sold on that yet. Despite problems, he’s still capable of playing at a reasonably high level. He made one bad decision Sunday that resulted in an interception. But he also moved fairly well in the pocket and did a decent job moving the ball down the field. Of his nine completions he got four first downs and a touchdown. Physically he looks good. Mentally is another story.
- Second, are his receivers unable to separate? Sure Steve Smith is going to get blanket coverage. That didn’t stop him last year. Moose did well against the Bucs, catching three of the four balls thrown his way. But he didn’t exactly separate himself well.
- What happened to Rosario? He caught one of three balls, and at least two of his drops would have been catches last week.
- Why do all of our passes go for 5 yards or less or 20+ in the air? The “bad” interception came on a second and 20 where Jake tried to get it all back at once.
- What can be done to get our receivers on track? This is a broad question, but it needs an answer. What do other teams do?
- How much responsibility does Jeff Davidson have for Jake’s poor performance? None? Any? All?
We get one more week to figure this stuff out. Buffalo should go down to the run at BofA next Sunday. After that, it’s back into the Lion’s Den at Arizona and then New Orleans. Someone needs to find answers soon, or we’ll be eliminated by mid-November.
Who's the Receivers Coach?
The QB coach? Don’t we have coaches for these positions? Shouldn’t they be held accountable when things aren’t working well?
Good summery
I hate to say it but I feel Steve Smith is seeing the writing on the wall. He sees Williams and Stewart getting the bulk of the game and Delhomme just doesn’t have what it takes anymore to get the ball to his recievers on a constant basis. I’m not sure if Delhomme can be labled an average QB anymore and I don’t think he can see the field and evaluate it properly at this point in his career.
Great summary of the problem, Cyberjag.
It is almost as if Jake is morphing into a West Coast Offense QB — his only effectiveness is on short passes.
My answers to your questions:
1) maybe — other elements of our game have shown vast improvement recently — maybe he will, too. I’m giving him more time to sort it all out, and find his way.
2) yes — I think that could be alleviated by different routes — more double cuts, more flooding one side, more comeback routes — these shake off tight coverage better than the simple go routes we deal in.
3) he had a bad game, after being a very positive factor — no biggie.
4) that’s my real concern — we haven’t been able to stretch the defense, and won’t, until we show a deep threat.
5) this goes back to #2.
6) a lot — the play calling has to be changed, which includes which routes are called, and how Jake might be improved by rolling out (Brees gets a lot more time by this simple maneuver), or using Smith in the slot, in motion, or taking a reverse once a game. We need more imagination in pay selection — using a Wildcat formation a few time a game hasn’t produced anything — it might if Smitty took a handoff from Williams.
Just my opinion. I would love for Jake to succeed — but he needs help, from everybody involved.
Smith in the slot
I could very well have this wrong, but wouldn’t having someone in the slot involve lining up three wide, two on one side and one on the other.
WR wr TGCGT TE WR
QB
RB
Which is something we really don’t do. I would like to see Moose, Smith, and K. Moore on the field in this set.
Right on!
Get the ball in Moore’s hands too. He can make plays. Why not line up in 3,4, or 5 wide for some quick pass plays. If we’re 5 wide surely they can hit Smith, Moore, or even Williams/Goodson for a quick screen and let those talents make some plays with the ball in their hands, rather than letting Jake throw a prayer downfield.
And Steve Smith is right. He needs the ball in his hands for the Panthers to play to potential. Blame it on Delhomme, Davidson, Fox, whoever. It needs correcting regardless of whose fault it is.
My opinion is that Delhomme is not right, and should not be starting. Feeley or Moore couldn’t really play worse. And if we’re handing it off successfully like yesterday than just keep on running and keep the ball out of the QBs hands in general.
+1
Posted about this in the other thread.
Smith should get short looks early, and intermediate looks after he’s involved.
Starting Jake out throwing deep is just retarded. I’m sorry, he’s already struggling this year with the deep ball, WHY would you give him deep passes to start the game with? Why not let him get into the flow and then unleash him?
A three-wide set with Rosario at TE and Williams in the backfield is the perfect way to get Delhomme’s mojo back, IMHO. That depends on the line, but if they could run out of that set then all of the sudden you have five potential receivers on every play and a defense that has no idea where the ball is going. Send Moose and Rosario over the middle, Moore and Smith deep, and let Williams catch it out of the backfield. Let Jake get into the game and see what he can do.
Otherwise you’re just going to continue to chip away at his confidence and end up with a wasted QB who will probably resurface on another roster, a la Kurt Warner.
LittleKing, I agree 100%
Steve Smith is a faster, stronger, better route running version of Wes Welker. There is no reason he should not exceed Welker’s statistics.
What differs is how the Patriots utilize Welker. They always line him up in the slot to take advantage of the short routes and use his speed to gain YAC.
We could benefit greatly from utlizing Smith the same way, but we have failed to attempt it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Man I totally agree....
especially on on items 2 & 6. I’ve seen other teams (the Eagles of course) vary formations and use motion effectively to loosen the coverage a little bit.
I know this discussion will continue but.....
“For the people suggesting Fox makes the switch to Matt Moore I would suggest you look at Moore’s preseason stat lines. Look at his numbers against opponent’s third teams and still say with a straight face that he will turn this team around against first team defenses.”
Jake did not look good in the preseason with the starters either and has not looked good in the first 5 games of the year. It is tough to evaluate talent with 3rd stringers, and the argument could go either eay as to who has the better depth. Look at the end of 2007 to evaluate Moore. If the coaches are just wanting a QB to hand the ball off and throw the short passes….do you think Moore could not handle that? He could not do any worse than Jake at this point. He is younger and more athletic and might would (might being the key word) bring some life to a rather uninspiredf looking offense.
With a straight face I would say yes he could give us a better chance to win. However, the only way to find out is let him play against some of these mediocre teams before he is thrown to the wolves against the beast of a schedule ahead. I just do not see Jake helping us win many games this year and the 10 INTS are why.
My name is Dave and I approve of this message.
Otherwise…good write up James and I know this discussion will continue until Jake turns it around (doubtful) or is replaced (also doubtful).
I don't see it in Moore
Physically, he could do the same as Jake easy enough. But he doesn’t have the command of the huddle to lead the team like Jake does. If he did, then there’s no way Delhomme would be starting. Right now he’s playing as poorly as Rodney Peete did when he got yanked.
I think if McCown was healthy we might be seeing him, but he’s not so we aren’t. Good QBs are hard to come by, and we need one. Jake used to be, and maybe he could again. But for that to happen I believe we’re going to need to really work at calling plays that fit his strengths and not those that expose his weaknesses.
He’s doing pretty well at the short passing game, and he has no touch on his long ball. I hope to see us change things up against Buffalo by maybe using more screens and slants, and instead of throwing deep over the coverage maybe we could try some 10-15 yard out patterns, where if the ball is poorly thrown it goes out of bounds instead of into the safety’s hands.
Also, I’m reading that the offense has developed a “tell” that defenses are keying on: http://www.carolinagrowl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=195:column-muhammad-believes-opponents-know-when-panthers-plan-to-throw-the-ball&catid=1:articles . If this is the case, we need to figure it out quick.
Jake's "command of the huddle"
Our Wide Receivers look like they have given up on him and I can’t blame them. They are doing their assignments on run plays extremely well, but when running out for a pass, they are doing so without much fight.
You think they're open?
I haven’t see that. It’s one thing to give up on the quarterback, but if you’re a receiver and you’re not getting open on your routes then you need to take care of that before you point any fingers. And these guys have played with Jake for years, I don’t see them giving up on him so easily, especially after a season like last year.
Fans will punish him for Arizona and Philadelphia a lot quicker than the players, and against Atlanta, Dallas, and Washington he played fairly well.
I just don’t see it. Sorry.
I didnt say they are getting open
When I say “going out for a pass without much fight” I mean their own personal fight. They are looking at it as “why go 100%? Jake is only going to miss me.”
Too much history
I get where you’re coming from now, but these guys have played together too long for that to happen so quickly in a season. If Jake was a new QB or the receivers had put up with it for a few years I would buy it, but that’s not the case here. So I don’t think they’re slacking off.
Which raises another issue—if they’re NOT slacking off, and if this is the best they can do, what do they have left?
thought about that too
I can understand Moose getting gassed, he is at the twilight of his career… But Smitty? He may not be a spring chicken, but he should not be declining yet. I still think it is just the fact that he is getting blanket coverage and Delhomme is not delivering good passes… at least I hope that is what it is.
That's interesting about the "tell"
Maybe it’s time for the Panthers to do some self-scouting.
Is defenses have worked out a tell, then it's a major concern.
It also explains alot of the performance this season. I’m not looking to make it a scapegoat, but something that needs to be addressed.
I wonder what it is. Jake, Smitty, Moose they’ve all played for years together. It makes me wonder if it’s someone on the offensive line.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know Cyber...
Steve’s comments tell me that Jake may be losing that command.
We also have to consider Fox’s stubborness with sticking with veterans once they are on the decline…see Deshaun Foster and Dan Morgan- God Bless them both.
In Fox's defense:
DeShaun Foster was coming off back to back 900 yard seasons, and despite the first 900 yard season Fox drafted DeAngelo in the first round.
No arguments from me on Morgan, I love Dan Morgan but we stuck with him for too long. The silver lining is we ended up with Beast!
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
For all the optimism I feel
I know this discussion will continue until Jake turns it around (doubtful) or is replaced (also doubtful).
This would be why I still feel pessimistic.
Dave, I appreciate your opinions and understand why you want the change.
Yes, more was very servicable, dare I say good in those last 3 games in 2007. However, what has he done since then with the chances he’s had?
2008 preseason: 35/65 389 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT, 52.7 rating
2009 preseason: 16/29 173 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 58.5 rating
Despite Jake’s pitiful performance in 2009, his rating is 56.8. Almost on par with Moore’s preseason performance.
You mentioned Jake performing poorly in the preseason, so as a comparison:
2008 preseason: 20/34 213 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT, 72.3 rating
2009 preseason: 23/36 284 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 88.2 rating
So while I respect the desire for change, Moore’s performance is consistently worse than Jake’s. I think the fanbase are building him up to be a savior when in reality he’s a third string QB, backup at best.
Again though, if we go on another losing streak, then yes, put him in.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
These stats do make Delhomme look better than Moore, I will give you that, but neither were impressive. To be fair, having the starters can definitely help a QB rating. I would like to see some more real game action from Moore before calling him a career backup, another reason for change.
Jake’s QB rating through 5 games with the starters- 56.8 with 10 INTS, which is what currently stands out to me.
If Moore’s performance has consitently been worse after being on the roster for 3 years then we have a coaching problem, because he is still young and had alot of upside at one time.
A change means hope, which is all any of us can do at this time.
The two wins in a row gave me hope. Like I said in the article, each week a phase of the game has tightened up.
You never know, maybe next week it will be Jake and the recievers.
Granted, they’ve been extremely ugly wins… but a W is a W. Until we suit up against the Saints, Giants, Pats or any of the other tough teams on our schedule we’ll never know what we’re made of. I try and shy away from the ‘well, it was close against team X, so we’ll be blown out by team Y’. After all, the Bills almost beat the Patriots week one and have since lost to the Browns. Meanwhile, the Jets beat the Pats but lost to the Bills.
I have learnt in my years of being a fan that the Panthers rise and fall to the occasion. If there is anything John Fox is guilty of it’s having a team that plays up and plays down to their compeition.
Outside of the Philly game this year that’s been the case. We matched wits with Atlanta all game (who have since bested the Bears and destroyed the 49ers), also, apart from a second half debacle we had Dallas’ number in that game.
Yes, we played far below our potential vs. Washington and Tampa, but we got wins. I for one, think we’ll raise our game against the better teams, but I know that doesn’t make it any easier as a fan.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to take Dave's side for a minute
James, do you think if we were 0-5 that Jake would start against Buffalo?
Knowing John Fox... yes
Same situation that Tennesee are having now with Jeff Fisher. Everyone in the country knows they should be starting Vince Young, just to see if he has what it takes… but Fisher is digging his heels in with Collins.
If we were 0-5 then I would be calling along with the rest to start Matt Moore, to see what his future potential is so we can evaluate whether QB is a position we need to draft early. If we were 0-5 when the Saints are 5-0 then it’s pretty clear we have no shot at the post season and need to look at every position.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank god we have our identity back.
Too bad they didn’t figure it out before the Bye. We would be 3-2 instead of 2-3.
We made have out edit our identity a little bit. Instead of a run first pass second offense, we are a run first, and then run again because our QB sucks offense.
"Once again the trousers of evil are yanked down by the mocking hands of justice!"-Revshawn
Nice analysis and follow up comments
I’m extremely optimistic coming off our 2nd consecutive win with Buffalo coming to town next weekend. The NFL season is always a work in progress. For me— its one week at a time.
GO PANTHERS!
not to urinate on anyone's parade, but...
you know things are bad when smitty has something to say…
Panthers receiver Steve Smith, who caught one pass for four yards against the Bucs on Sunday, said after the game: “I’m no longer an asset to this team.” Smith, who has six career 100-plus yard games against the Bucs, has 21 receptions this season for for 259 yards and no touchdowns this season. “Two guys are committed to him every play,” said quarterback Jake Delhomme. “We try to take shot shots, but it’s difficult.”
True
It IS pretty bad when Smith is speaking out. Usually he’s been the one to come to Jake’s rescue. I really hate that he feels like he’s not an asset any longer. But, truth to be told, the ball just isn’t getting to him properly. The passes are either over-thrown, under-thrown, behind him, or at times he has to tackle the guy that just caught the interception. I blame the QB and I blame the OC – both are contributing to it. Yes, we all like to see the ball in the air and Smith sprinting full speed – but, those connections just aren’t being made. Though there isn’t really an easy fix – what would HELP tremendously is, Kenneth Moore in the slot – or on the field at all when Moose and Smith are. If defenses want to smother Smith, we HAVE to make them pay by completing passes to our Slot receiver or TEs more consistently. Then they can’t cheat the safety over to Smith.
by boywonderncsu on Oct 19, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone know how many of Delhomme's turnovers this year...?
were returned for touchdowns? I feel like he’s had at least 4 or 5 returned for touchdowns. Am I wrong?
Too many excuses
If we are going to be stuck with Delhomme why can’t we see some of the younger talent on the field deveolping their skills. Goodson, Moore, Garrett and Barnigh(spelling?). Either make Garrett get on the field and block and catch the ball or move him to the PT he is taking up too much air on the sidelines. There is no team in the league that doesn’t know what our next play is going to be.
Goodson: Injured, fumble prone. When we have two RBs who can run for over 100 yards each it makes it tough to find carries for Goodson.
Moore: I agree, we need to get Kenneth Moore involved in the offense more.
Garrett (I assume you mean Dwayne Jarrett): Is a waste right now. They want him to develop into someone he’s not. He’s yet another failed USC WR.
Barnidge: He’d stuck being a tweener right now. He’s a worse blocker than King and a worse reciever than Rosario, but a better blocker than Rosario and a better reciever than King. It makes it tought to find him snaps.
Big time roster moves need to happen during the apporpriate time, the offseason. As it stands we’re going to need to just ride with who we have. After all, we are on a two game win streak. But, I agree that if the postseason becomes unattainable we need to evaluate talent at all positions.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Hm
Let’s line Goodson up in the slot receiver position then :) If he catches a few passes in the open – we can see that speed he showcased in the preseason, yes? I have to agree that Jarrett is wasting everyone’s time. Why not have Smith as the Z, K. Moore as the X and put Goodson in at the Y – just to switch the matchups a bit.
by boywonderncsu on Oct 19, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
One of the key reasons Goodson was drafted was to be a change of pace back, and have an impact out of the slot.
As of yet, we have not seen Goodson in the slot this season (when healthy).
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
3rd sring Moore
I was impressed that the BUCS moved a young QB up and played him yesterday and he did fairly well. When Moore played behind the first line two years ago he did a good job, but ever since he has played behind either the 2nd or 3rd string lines in preseason and that doesn’t help your image or stats. If he got a few games under him with the first line I think he would improve greatly. Romo did very poorly in the beginning but they stuck with him even though he seems to be having a problem right now. Maybe he misses Jessica.
Very good summary Aussie James...
If we can figure out what is wrong with special teams coverage, we can at least give our offense a chance against the better teams we’ll see this season. And I agree that with BigDavis that we have to get creative and find ways to get Smith the ball…You made a statement that I think is pretty profound, when you talked about Smith and Muhammed…These two are fierce competitors and in the past their performance was able to hide a lot of Delhomme’s inadequacies…Jake has many inadequacies as a QB, always has. Not every loss through the years can be blamed on Jake of course, but are we really that surprised that he is struggling? The goods have been out on Jake for years, not every team has had the ability to exploit those inadequacies. Also we have been pretty bad in other areas throughout the years. The O-line in 2007 was wet paper soft …This season, outside of losing Kemo, we really are pretty solid at almost every other facet of the game, albiet we have not played to that potential everygame, as you brought out… So now the spotlight is on Jake. The teams that can will take away the run, every team we face will double Smith. So for the team to be successful, Jake is forced to do more than just manage. He has to think on his feet, create something that’s not there, find the open man that the play was not drawn for. And make consistent accurate throws. These things have never been a part of Jakes skill set. Good Jake, Bad Jake or …the Real Jake? I think we’re seeing now what we always had…
k, using Smith to draw defenders to open the running game is a workable strategy against mediocre teams but if Carolina is going to move to the next level they MUST have a balanced attack and quick strike offense.
If Williams and Stewart are injured or stopped then what? Defense gets tired and loses game.
You need a QB that CAN THROW ACCURATELY (especially if they can’t run). i’m not a football guru, but close to a diehard Pather fan and believe we gotta win games and show that this expansion team is a real NFL power.
Besides why have an overpaid, nonproductive QB, and two back-ups which are too risky to even play with…that’s not offense. A killer Defense is useless if offense can’t produce.
About that overpaid thing...
Jake’s cap value was going to be $11 million this year. By restructuring and extending his contract that number went down to about $8.5 million. That’s Derek Anderson territory, not particularly rich for a starting quarterback. And the contract is for five years, but everyone involved know that there’s no way he plays it out. Even Delhomme laughed at that.
Look at the cap figures and guarantees, not the length. This was done to juggle numbers, and Jake played along. It looks bad to fans, but not to cap experts (and I’m no cap expert).
+1
Let me add that prevailing wisdom is that Jake will retire to the horse farm in Louisiana before the contract is up any way.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 19, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's get something straight about Jake
This was debatable back when we could point to a few lousy games per year. But now it is 6 weeks into the season, and here are his stats…
QB Rating: 33rd
Total Yards: 25th
Yards/Game: 28th
TDs: 26th
INTs: 1st!
He is scraping the bottom of almost every statistical category. This is not debatable anymore. He is now one of the worst QBs in the league. Would Moore or Feeley do better? It’s hard to imagine doing much worse.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Stats on Jake are completely askew right now because of the horrible performance against Philadelphia. I don’t think anyone can argue that he is drastically better than that atrocious performance in Charlotte. If you give him a mulligan on that game (not saying you should, because it needs to be considered) then you get a very different picture of his performance since then.
To add some perspective, Mark Sanchez is having a worse season at this point. But, the vast majority of Jets fans aren’t calling for his head because his horrible game came a week ago and they saw wat he could do before hand, meanwhile Jake played horribly in week one, well in week 2, decently in week 3, servicably in week 5 and badly in week 6. I understand the ire of fans, but too many people are focusing all their energy into the stat lines from the Philadelphia and Tampa games, while failing to look at the other 3 starts where he played okay… not great, but okay.
As for the total passing yards and yards per game… can we really slight Jake for the Panthers doing exactly what we asked them to do? Run the ball and throw far less. Weeks 2 and 3 he was in the top 10 in passing yards each week, throwing a total of 74 times in two weeks, in weeks 5 and 6 he has only attempted 42 passes. This is condusive to the success of the team, but doesn’t make Jake’s numbers look pretty.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions
cough* bullshit* cough
If you support Jake as the starter than that’s fine. it’s your opinion. But please save us the excuses! Jake sucks. There is no denying that, and if you do, then YOU’RE in denial.
He is arguably the worst QB in the league this season and would NOT start for any other team in the NFL in 2009. You’re living in the past, James. Delhomme is the past. And if we wait for him to suck it up long enough that we’re out of the playoffs then, this season will have been a waste!
Yes. We have won two games in a row. But you should acknowledge that we won those games in spite of yet more poor QB play from Delhomme, not because of anything he did well on the field.
As bad as this sounds…i wish Jake would get injured so we would HAVE to put in a new QB.
If Jake is as horrible as you say he is, why aren’t you directly refuting any of the things James said? Would think it would be easy.
by SlayerGhaleon on Oct 20, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I am directly refuting it, as well do the stats!
You can’t win a debate with someone who makes their mind up irrationally. Up until the playoff game last year and the start of this season i have always supported JAke and took his side when discussing the Panthers with my friends.
However, it is objectively impossible to look at Jake’s play and NOT think he sucks. The only folks who don’t think he sucks are doing so out of a subjective favoritism towards him. They remember fondly the plays that delhomme made 5 years ago. He sucks now and IS as horrible as I (and anybody ) can objectively see.
James tries to whitewash and rationalize the horrific numbers Jake has racked up this season – just imagine how much more horrible those numbers would be if the AZ playoff game was included too! But James is just rooting for his man, not objectively looking at the facts. The fact is: Delhomme is NOT a good QB, and is rapidly becoming a BAD QB.
Make a true argument other than 'he sucks' and we can have a discussion.
Jake was horrible vs. Philadelphia and Tampa Bay, no doubt.
I said Delhomme played well in week 2:
- 25/41, 308 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 82.2 rating
What do you call it?
I said Delhomme played decently in week 3:
- 22/33, 220 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT (one directly on Steve Smith), 70.3 rating
What do you call it?
I said Delhomme was servicable in week 5:
- 11/16, 181 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 82.3 rating
What do you call it?
Looking objectively means looking at all performances, not just honing in on a game vs. Philly, a game vs. Tampa and sitting back saying you’ve proved your point citing less than half of the games played. Let me add, that I said he played horribly in those contests.
Jake Delhomme is not a great QB, he’d never been great, he’s had great moments, but little more than that. He has not played well this season as a whole, but I don’t think he’s a bad QB. I have also said (more times than I care to KEEP recalling) that I think we need to get a QB in the offseason and have vocalized who I think should fulfill that role.
So, dudemanhey, you can fake cough, call bullshit, whatever you like… but I stand by my asertation that when you look at the season as a whole he’s been the same old Jake he’s always been with two big exclamation points punctuation two horrible performances. If we see more of those performances I’ll agree that he’s a bad QB, but as I remember you were one of the people saying he was going to be horrible against Atlanta after the Philly game and were convieniently silent when he proved you wrong.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference is that when Jake plays "well" (as you call it)....
…he’s really just playing mediocre. Okay at best! 82 passer ratings are average numbers not good numbers. 82 is his top rating!!!
His good games used to be 300 yards 3 TDs 1 int. Now they’re when he doesn’t throw more INTs than TDs! It has gotten ridiculous and i do not understand how any body can still support him based on what he has produced on the field over the last 10 games. If you support him it is because of what he did in the past exclusively.
If you are seriously arguing that Delhomme has NOT gotten demonstrably worse – especially over the last 6 games (playoff and first 5 regular season games) – it is hard to take you seriously. I am not the one looking at just a few handpicked games, you are. Of those last 6 games the three BEST games were the ones you listed above. Extremely mediocre performances.
Why wait to bench him? Moore or Feeley would be hard pressed to play any worse than Delhomme has played. (please don’t list pre-season stats as a reason Moore could not produce in the starting line-up because they are not fair comparisons for a number pf previously stated reasons).
Believe it or not
82.3 is an average start for Jake Delhomme, he’s never had a fully season with a QB rating in the 90’s, not once.
Since 2003 Jake has made 83 regular season starts for the Panthers.
In 39 games he registered a QB rating less than 82.3
In 44 games he registered a QB rating over 82.3
So, in reality, 82.3 is almost a dead average start for Jake Delhomme.
Now, let’s look at worst performances by him by season:
2009: 14.7 and 42.2 QB rating
2008: 12.3 and 38.6 QB rating
2007: 3 good starts before injury
2006: 54.4 and 56.1 QB rating
2005: 46.0 and 45.6 QB rating
2004: 38.4 and 47.8 QB rating
2003: 15.9 and 50.9 QB rating
It looks from these statistics that his worst games so far are better than his worst games in 2008, the same team that went 12-4. Is he struggling right now? Yes, absolutely. But people are tending to have this over inflated view of Jake Delhomme like he used to be a perenial pro bowler who is done now.
In reality, he’s performing like he always does, it’s just too early in the season to get a full sampling of his performance because we only have 5 games to judge.
Half the fanbase choose to judge Jake by his games vs. Philly and Tampa, and the other half prefer to look at his games vs. Atlanta and Washington.
Being the optimist I am, I choose to look at the good games… and yes, I truly believe Matt Moore could come in and do far worse than Jake Delhomme.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You can't compare isolated bad bames to a 6 game stretch
We are talking about a QB rating of 54, and 19 turnovers in 6 games! Over the past 6 games, half of those games he had a QB rating below 45! Like I said it was debatable when he occasionally had bad games… But now he is flat out making us a bad team.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Oct 20, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
For now...
Like i’ve said before… Jake is predictable as the day is long. Every season we get 4 horrible games, 8 sevicable games and 4 outstanding games.
He’s used up 2 horrible and 3 servicable games… so I think he’s due for a big one.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 21, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Jake threw 12 INTs all of last season
He’s already thrown 10 this season!!!!!
“He’s used up 2 horrible and 3 servicable games… so I think he’s due for a big one.”
Nothing more than wishful thinking
"and yes, I truly believe Matt Moore could come in and do far worse than Jake Delhomme."
That would be damn near impossible!
But his QB rating average this year is 58!
His TOP QB ratings for the season are 82!
You are making less and less sense as this argument goes on. He’s not the same old Jake. His best numbers now are only as good as his overall average used to be.
Sanchez is a rookie!
Veterans shouldn’t be allowed to consistently make “rookie” mistakes. And no more mulligans, please! How about we replace the Philly game with the preceding post season game? Ooops, he would need 2 mulligans.
And we all know that the reason he is having less attempts is because it is too risky to let him throw. John Fox made this very clear on the winning drive last week, when he only allowed Jake one, short, easy pass. That had 2006 Chris Weinke written all over it.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Oct 20, 2009 1:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree with you, we shouldn’t ALLOW him to keep making rookie mistakes, and the team are doing the right thing taking the ball out of his hands it was ludicrous to have him throw more than 30 times a game any way.
If we are able to keep running the way we did vs. Tampa, then it doesn’t matter.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
That's asking too much
2 backs with 100+ yards for the rest of the season? No way.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Oct 20, 2009 2:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I know, but we can dream. Even 150 yards combined each week puts us in good stead.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Delhomme
I honestly cannot see why we don’t even try AJ Feeley or Matt Moore. Sure Delhomme does fine against bad teams and against the Bills will probably throw “only” two picks. Or actually we might have another Az playoff game on our hands. We are at the point where we are just having delhomme turn and hand it off to our backs. Matt Moore’s rookie season he got Rookie of the month in december…. give him another shot. Not to mention he played better then delhomme in the philadelphia game sure he had a pick but he was also airing it out trying to drive it down the field when he wasn’t expecting to play at all. Give him a week to practice for the game play a week team like the bills, the the slightly better az defense with their bad pass d and when we play the saints he will give us a much better chance of winning the delhomme possibly will. Why must Fox hold on to delhomme when it is just a matter of time before he throws 5 int in one game.
I honestly think it has to do with the team winning. Look at the situation in Tennesee as a yardstick… Jeff Fisher is alot like Jonh Fox and even he’s digging his heels in about starting Vince Young, a number 3 overall pick, and they’re 0-6.
Compare that to the Panthers who are 2-3 and have Matt Moore and A.J Feeley on the bench.
That being said, if the Panthers start losing again and go on a major losing streak ,or become mathmatically eliminated from the postseason, then we’ll see Moore. The Big Cat will make sure of it, John Fox or not.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Too late for what?
If we have to resort to hoping a career backup QB will allow us to catch the Saints the season is over, simple as that.
I prescribe to the ‘Better the devil you know’ model. We know what we have in Jake, a QB that will stink up 4 games a season, play okay in 8 games and play lights out in 4 games. Look at his history, that’s what he does.
Moore, who knows. He’s an unknown factor. While we still have a shot at getting up with Atlanta and New Orleans we need to stick with Jake, and if we can’t… then we concede this season, start Moore and see how he does so we can evaluate the position.
I defy you to find a team in the history of the NFL that changed QBs on a two game win streak solely because they wanted to.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Career back up?
Almost every starter in the league was a back up first. That is ridiculous. Jake was a “career back up” until he got a chance. So was Tom Brady, Steve young, etc. Is Moore destined for that sort of career? We won’t know until he gets some real PT.
The point is he may not be stellar, but he can’t play worse than Jake Delhomme is already playing! Period.
The "Old Jake"
The “old jake” we COULD count on him on the past to "stink up 4 games a season, play okay in 8 games and play lights out in 4 games. "
But the new Jake will be lucky to have 1 lights out performance. He’s already stunk it up 2 (i’d say 3) times this season and played decent 2 times. I just don’t see him turning it around this year – based on what he has done so far THIS season.
Like i said before: You are entirely basing your support of Jake on the things he’s done in the PAST. Quit living in the past, James! John! Marty!
It’s 2009 now…Jake Delhomme sucks now! Get up to speed!
Too late for what??
Too late to have a successful season this year!!!! THAT’S WHAT!
Unlike you, i am not ready to double down on Jake Delhomme. I am not ready to concede this season! Right now, despite all of Moore’s “unknowns” i’d say the best chance the Panthers have of making a serious playoff run is to bench Delhomme and give the younger less experienced QB a chance to make something happen.
How stupid will you (and hopefully Fox) feel if Delhomme starts and stinks it up until the Panthers are mathmatically eliminated, then Moore comes in and wins 6 of 8 or 3 of 4?
Why wait? What do we have to lose? It is nearly impossible for a QB to hurt his team any more than Jake has hurt the Panthers over the last 6 games. And maybe, just maybe we find a diamond in the rough with Matt Moore. If he is so bad that we think he’ll play worse than Jake has played thus far, then why is he on the team?
I wouldn’t feel ‘stupid’ if Moore came in and won games, because the Panther fan in me would still cheer.
I just fail to see how a QB with a career rating of 64, who has only thrown for over 200 yards once in his career, a QB who has twice as many INTs in his career than TDs, is better than Jake Delhomme.
You claim I’m living in the past… but what has Moore done since 2007?
2008 preseason rating of 52.7
2009 preseason rating of 58.5, rating of 33.5 in relief vs. Eagles.
I think you need some perspective on Matt Moore. So, let’s go back to the past, into 2007 and examine the primary argument for Matt Moore, i.e. how well he played in 3 games in 2007.
So, let’s compare the QBs in 2007, shall we? after all, both Moore and Jake got 3 starts with the team.
Matt Moore: 49/79, 564 yards, 3 TD, 2 INT, 86.1 QB rating
Jake Delhomme: 55/86, 624 yards, 8 TD, 1 INT, 111.8 QB rating
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Still living in the past.
1) Matt Moore was a rookie. Surely he has improved since then. Additionally, those were the 1st three starts of his career and his QB rating was 86.1; much higher than Jake’s QB rating for the 1st five games of THIS season. In fact, his QB rating AVERAGE was higher than any SINGLE GAME QB rating for Delhomme so far THIS year.
2) Those were Jake’s last games before his career altering arm injury. Sure, last season’s numbers were still decent, and good in some games for Jake Delhomme, but he just is not the same player as before the injury. Surely you will not deny that.
3) Moore’s preseason statistics are not a reliable indicator because (as has been REPEATEDLY pointed out) he was taking snaps with 2nd, 3rd, and PT players, not the starters.
4) You: “So, let’s compare the QBs in 2007, shall we? after all, both Moore and Jake got 3 starts with the team.”
Me: please see title of this comment above…its 2009, James.
1) If he has ‘surely improved since then’ why did the Panthers bring in Josh McCown? They obviously had no confidence in Moore as the sole backup.
2) Last year’s numbers were decent? They were better than his 2006 and 2003 numbers. So, I don’t buy in to the ‘he was ruined by the injury’ argument.
3) Yes, he played with the second and third teams… he also played AGAINST second and third teams and was upstaged and outplayed by Hunter Cantwell against the same competition.
4) Okay, so let’s look into the present.
Matt Moore: 6/11 (54.5%), 63 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 33.5 rating
Jake Delhomme: 79/133 (59.4%), 847 yards, 4 TD, 10 INT, 56.8 rating
I know it’s 2009… and Matt Moore is only a second stringer by proxy because McCown is injured.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Fair
You can’t hold Moore’s stats from the eagles game against him. He was thrown in when the panther’s were downtrodden and the Eagles had all the momentum. And he drove down the field trying to make something happen and got picked off. Sure he messed up trying to make something out of a overall miserable game.
No I think Moore should get a shot at playing and what better team for him to get a shot at then the Buffalo Bills while Carolina is at home. Even if he is and avg QB that is much better the 09 Jake.
By the way how good is Feeley I don’t think I have ever seen him play.
Feeley is okay. He’s not going to light the world on fire, there’s a reason the Eagles cut him for a 4 week rental of Jeff Garcia.
As for holding Moore’s numbers against him, I think it’s a double standard to count the game against Jake, but absolve Moore of the same game. Especially when 40% of Jake’s INTs this season came in that game.
Buffalo is a very winnable game for the Panthers. Say we throw Moore in there and he throws 4 INTs like Jake did against Philly. Then we just blew our chance at a winnable game on a whim.
In the end, I’m not going to convince dudemanhey, and he’s not going to convince me. Neither Delhommer nor Moore are the future answer to the QB position, we need to address it 1st round (if we trade for a pick) or 2nd in the 2010 draft. Simple as that. Very few teams have a franchise QB land in their lap without drafting, and we haven’t taken a QB 1st or 2nd round since Kerry Collins in 1995. That has to change.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 20, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you seriously believe....
…the odds of Moore throwing 4 INTs is anywhere as high as the odds Delhomme doing it?
Yes, yes I do.
I would suggest you look up statistics before throwing a comment out there like that.
Jake Delhomme has only had 4 starts (regular season and playoffs) where he has thrown 4+ INT’s.
FOUR… out of…. 88
That means his probability of that occuring is 3.52%
Furthermore, he has 32 starts where he has thrown no interceptions, none… zero.
That mean his probability of throwing 0 INTs is 28.16%
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 21, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Using your unscientific method, James
Matt Moore has NEVER thrown 4 INTS in a single NFL game so (using your logic) Moore has a 0% chance of doing so compared to Jake’s 3.52%.
Additionally, if you consider that over the most recent 6 games of Jake’s NFL career he has had at least 5 turnovers TWICE and has failed to play in a game this season without committing a turnover, it becomes quite clear that despite your assertions the odds of Delhomme throwing 4 picks vs Moore doing the same are MUCH, MUCH greater.
"I would suggest you look up statistics before throwing a comment out there like that."
Furthermore, I suggest you take your own damn advice!
Moore can’t even be included in a statistical argument because he only has 3 starts, that’s not a big enough sampling.
It’s flogging a dead horse at this point. You think a QB who’s only thrown for 200 yards once in his career and has a career rating only 10 points better than Jake’s the season will lead us to the promised land.
I disagree… furthermore, you’re getting a little too heated by the tone of your comments so I suggest we leave it here.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 21, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
you'd really rather drop it because...
…it is impossible to effectively argue your opinion because you are so clearly wrong.
I never said Moore would lead the Panthers anywhere. But it is becoming quite clear that they are going nowhere with Delhomme, and it would be nearly statistically impossible for Moore to duplicate as sorry a showing as Delhomme has produced over the last 6 games.
Bottom line: Jake is hurting the team with his play and he is no longer a NFL caliber starting QB. he only reason anybody can possibly support him is out of loyalty from the past.
And it is hilarious...
….that someone who consistently displays such a blatant lack of understanding with regards to logic, probability, and statistics would try and lecture me!!!
hahahahaha
I’m not trying to lecture you… just drop it. I’m not going to convince you, you’re not going to convince me.
Now your argument is simply becoming ad hominem… so explain to me who doesn’t have a point to prove anymore?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 21, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really a double standard
I mean really Moore was thrown into a horrible situation and told to air it out to try and make something happen when eagles knew the pass was coming. And he still did well until he threw a pick and then he was done. Moore needs a chance to play. We are avoiding giving the ball to delhomme because he’ll throw 4 picks and fumble it. If Moore is looking like a Delhomme we can just stop and give to stewart and williams again. But I think it is horribly unfair to the rest of the team as well as the fans to allow one player to drag a otherwise great team down because nobody wants to give a young QB the chance to prove himself.
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